Last Sentence Meme

Thanks @philosopherking1887​ for tagging me! 😀 Maybe this will pull me out of my writing slump.

The game is to post the last sentence you wrote and to tag as many people as there are words in the sentence!

So uhh I’m working on the second chapter of my Heavar fic. Sorry, nothing Thor-related this time!

A look of acute disbelief crossed Harald’s face as he put the pieces together, and he barked out a laugh. “Seems like you appreciate the Christian for more than just his skills as a warrior, eh?” 

Okay, it’s more than one sentence but they kinda go together so… *shrugs* Blanket-tagging anyone who wants to do it and hasn’t done it yet! ❤

illwynd:

aurora-nerin:

dardisblue:

can we talk about Marvel official website has updated Loki’s bio that confirms the “Loki was under the influence of the mind stone” fan theory?

Not a Loki apologist here, he did what he did, but a lot of stuff, his version of how he fell from the Bifrost, that speech in Germany, especially the “sudden clarity” scene with Thor makes a lot more sense. 

Seems like after 10 fuckin years marvel saw a value in Loki and has stopped shitting on him. What a time to be alive

#loki#tbh it was always pretty clear that we were meant to read something like that into it#and because it’s there in the original performance I’m not convinced that marvel is suddenly aware of Loki as a worthwhile character#i think someone has figured out he’s bankable#but their understanding of him has never been worse than now

reblogging to add my own tags here because i just wanted to say it again

it is nice to have it set out right there that loki was not being controlled but was being subtly influenced, because that accords with what is actually shown on the screen. that description makes it clear that loki chose to cooperate in the first place, even if he was undoubtedly left with few options at that point, and it also makes clear that there was some extent of influence affecting his perception of events and his own emotional state. 

but i want to reiterate that the fact that they’re adding that to the official bio doesn’t mean they suddenly realize loki’s value as a character. all of that was already heavily implied in the original performance, even if fandom has been fandom and has argued and gone into total extremes of black and white interpretation and made a huge stink out of it. and more recent films have reduced his complexity, waved away his real grievances, and practically rewritten the nature of his relationship with Thor. That is rather a downward trajectory for Marvel’s use of the character. 

I do wonder if this addition indicates that the show will indeed be about Loki’s lost year. But I don’t feel like it necessarily indicates that they know how to do it well, if so.

I think there’s some wiggle room, but yeah, the bio only states what we could already see on screen, in that Loki was not completely mind-controlled the way Clint and Selvig were by him. @pyrebomb puts it perfectly by saying that Loki’s “destructive beliefs and behavior that already existed WITHIN HIM” were only amplified. Loki has already shown in Thor 1 that he doesn’t care much for mortals (whether it be their lives or the sanctity of their minds) and that he would be willing to even hurt or kill Thor. 

What I’ve always appreciated about Loki’s character is that he is driven so much by his own choices. He makes his own fate, and it is both incredibly saddening and a quality I admire in him because no matter how poor his decisions are, they are his own. He is so determined not to have his life and fate controlled by anyone else that even when Thor reaches out a hand to him, he decides to burn that bridge by stabbing him.

Stuff like the extent of torture at Thanos’ hands is more debatable but not relevant to the question of his agency. It certainly makes him and his motivations more sympathetic, and there is no question that everyone reacts to pain differently. But it’s still his choice to hurt others. Even when he’s under duress and it might be dawning on him that he is being subtly influenced and his perception may have been messed with, he won’t let anyone else be the cause of his actions. I don’t know any other character who defends their agency as much as Loki, even to the bitter end. It’s why I love him so much and I think we should respect that about him insteaed of trying to take his agency from him.

And yeah, the bio is no indication that Marvel has learned to respect or appreciate Loki as a character, so I def wouldn’t get my hopes up :/

Second Chances

Happy Day of the Dead! 😀 This fic is dedicated to @illwynd, who encouraged me to write this piece and was kind enough to let me blather to them about it. The title I nabbed from their story No Return, which definitely influenced my fic and which I can only recommend if you like being stabbed in the guts with feels and angst.

Post-IW. At first it seems like a blessing when an older Thor from the future appears before Loki. But it’s not. It really is not.

Warnings: Some dub-con and angst. Not a fix-it.

Second Chances (AO3)

*

Loki could almost see the phantom of two little boys, one dark-haired and quiet while the other brought a shard of sun into these dark chambers with his exuberance and bright head of gold. They ran past him into the shadows now, taking with them their laughter and leaving only silence.

There was only the quiet drip of water. This place had almost seemed hallowed to him, once, with weapons like the fangs of great felled beasts that whispered of the primeval horrors that had existed even before the creation of the realms, speaking tell of their grandfather’s battles against the hideous and monstrous giants. As a child he had desired nothing more than to glean all the secrets from these ancient and forgotten treasures. Now he only wanted to burn it all down.

The true meaning of the words Odin uttered all those years ago had finally become clear to him.

Both of you were born to be kings.

As if a frost giant could ever ascend the throne of Asgard.

But it hadn’t really been a lie, had it? After all, he was Laufey’s son.

He could never be a king of Asgard, only a king of monsters.

Loki wanted to laugh. He stood over the steps where only a day ago the man who was not his father had collapsed, unable to bear the force of his changeling child‘s rage. This was the exact spot where his hands had hovered over Odin the Allfather’s fallen form, ascertaining his appendages were the right color before daring to touch the one who had raised (stolen) him. He had let the woman who was not his mother take vigil at Odin‘s bedside but did not stay long, not trusting a frost giant near someone so helpless and vulnerable. After all, there was no telling what such a beast would do. And it was only later, much, much later, lying awake in bed at night, that he allowed himself to imagine it. A thousand, perhaps a million times.

What if the blue had not faded from his skin? What if in his rage he had summoned it to the surface, unleashed that cold, icy fury that froze his veins and burned him from the inside out?

He had not been thinking. Unleashing the black miasma and poison that had been festering inside him, screaming at Odin the way the other had screamed him into submission, into silence; the way Thor sometimes emulated. But oh, he would not be silenced any longer. He could see himself now, watching with dark satisfaction as Odin failed to think up more lies or hollow justifications, growing feebler and feebler underneath the onslaught. But then his legs had buckled. And Loki could see himself, grabbing hold of those familiar, calloused hands that used to hold his own smaller ones or pat him on the head with skin the color of discolored corpses, reaching out to help but instead doing the opposite.

Loki could hear the shout, weak with the encroaching healing sleep, as Odin’s flesh turned black with frostbite, climbing up his arm, shoulder and chest and the rest of his body. In his state he would have been unable to fight it off, helpless to watch as his fingers fell off, then his arm, pieces of necrotized flesh crumbling away, his face twisting into a rictus of horror as he died a slow, torturous death.

In those last moments, Loki wondered, would he still be capable of looking at him with that treacherous, false love in his eye?

Or would he finally realize it was folly to love a wretched thing like him, abandon his facade and only look at him with pure loathing on his face? And surely, surely then would he rethink his decision to not have let that runt die all those years ago.

For even when Loki wanted to help, he couldn’t. He could only make it worse. Maybe it was in his nature. Maybe he couldn’t be good no matter how much he tried.

Not like Thor, beautiful, honorable Thor with his golden hair, which was the gold of Asgard.

He belonged underneath the sun and sky, not in this dark, hidden chamber, dusty and full of forgotten, unloved things and secrets. Not like Loki, who was just another stolen relic, meant to be stowed away in the shadows until a better use for it was found.

Thor would never be like Loki, and he would never know what it’s like to lose everything.

Even now Loki couldn’t help glancing at his hands every few seconds, as if he thought they might have changed color when he wasn’t looking. It was ridiculous. It was sickening. It made him feel like a stranger in his own skin.

But he could make it stop.

Beyond the cage of his fingers, the Casket glittered on the plinth where it had been sitting since the frost giants’ defeat.

As he walked towards it, feet whispering on the ground, the drag of his cape a susurring murmur behind him, he could hear Thor’s words echoing in his ears. It felt like he was wading through a dream.

Now! We’ll finish them together.

Was he supposed to feel some kind of kinship with this ancient and holy artefact of the Jötnar? Just because they were both left in that temple and stolen by Odin? The idea was laughable.

March into Jötunheim as you once did, teach them a lesson, break their spirits so they’ll never dare try to cross our borders again!

No, he had a better idea. There was a way to end it all, put things to rights again.

He reached out, but a hand gripped his wrist. “Loki,” a wretched voice said.

Loki sucked in a sharp breath, head whipping towards the towering figure that seemed to have appeared out of thin air. “Who are you? How did you get in here?”

His heart pounded in his chest and already, Gungnir was materializing in his palm, but then the stranger also caught his other hand and crowded him against the plinth. The edge dug painfully into his lower back and he could have had the intruder bound and immobile with barely a thought, but there was something strangely familiar about the other that halted his tongue.

His eyes flickered warily over the intruder’s face, the breath catching in his chest when he realized who it was. He would recognize those features anywhere. And how couldn’t he? Even if you closed your eyes against it, you wouldn’t be able to block out the sun, shining bright red behind your lids.

“Thor?”

Thor let out a ragged breath that sounded almost like a hitch. “Loki.” His name almost seemed like the only thing the other could say and… were those tears glinting wetly on his cheeks?

“How are you here?” Loki took in the heterochromatic eyes, the close-shaven hair, the slightly older, worn features. The conspicuous lack of Mjölnir. If he had managed to regain his powers, then where was his hammer? “What is going on?” he asked, a hard knot of dread already forming in his stomach.

“I’m from the future.” Those mismatched eyes were fixed on his face with unsettling intensity, and Loki would have stepped back if he was not already trapped. Icy cold radiated from the Casket behind him, oddly reassuring against this new uncharted threat.

“I’m here to tell you,” the stranger with his not-brother’s face continued, “that you are right. You were always right. I was just an arrogant and war-hungry boy, unfit for the throne. You are so much better suited for kingship than I was or ever will be, brother.”

The reflexive protest that Thor was not his brother died on his tongue. Loki stopped and stared. “What?”

“It’s true. How could I ever protect a realm if I couldn’t even protect my loved ones?” There was an ugly twist to his mouth, one that Loki had never seen on Thor’s face before. “And even in that, I failed.”

Loki inhaled sharply, the implications making his head spin. “What do you mean?”

Thor only shook his head, the wetness of his cheeks becoming even more apparent as it caught the light at different angles. “It doesn’t matter. None of that will ever come to pass now. Brother, I came here to tell you that I was sorry. I never appreciated or saw you even though you were always by my side and supported me. I ignored your advice, thought of myself as better than you because of my position as the crown prince and due to everyone’s praises of me. I was self-centered, vain and cared only for battle glory and fame. I took you for granted and constantly put you down even though we were equals. You have always been my equal, brother, and I was a fool for not realizing that sooner. For not seeing how much pain you were in, because of me, because of father and mother and so many others in Asgard. I’m sorry, Loki. I’m sorry for being so stupid and blind.”

For a moment, Loki was rendered speechless, almost dazed. But when he shook himself out of his state, the blinding rage was more potent than ever before. He grabbed Thor’s jaw roughly, nails digging into the salt-sticky skin. “Oh, so you are sorry? You are sorry now? You think you can just walk in here and I’ll instantly forgive you like everyone else?”

Ah, such pretty words. So pretty and utterly meaningless.

Loki wanted to laugh. Did Thor think to manipulate Loki this way? To use him, as Odin had planned to use him? Yet inwardly he also reeled. Such deep insight was unexpected, let alone from his not-brother whom he had only ever known as a thoughtless oaf not even a full two days ago.

“No, never.” Thor’s brow creased as though pained, and even that expression looked wrong on him, somehow. “Please, please let me make it up to you. Let me make it right again. I was wrong, so wrong.”

Loki let go of his jaw with a sneer, heart racing and mouth feeling far too dry. “How?”

Thor looked at him then; looked at him like he could flay him open with his eyes alone and peer into the deepest, darkest corners of his soul.

It made something quiver inside Loki, but he couldn’t know. He couldn’t. It was one of Loki’s most well-kept secrets. Now more than ever it felt like they were the only things he was made of. Maybe that was all there ever had been to him, just the shape of a person wrapped around all the things he could never say. And if they were revealed, so too would Loki the person unravel.

That too-intense gaze softened and Thor smiled fondly, sadly. “Oh how I have missed you, brother.”

His hand gripped the side of Loki’s neck like a branding, thumb finding the groove at the base of his ear like second nature. Then that searing hot mouth covered his and he was lost. All he could do was hold on to Thor’s shoulders, sliding along his bare arms with sweaty, shaking hands, eyes fluttering shut and mouth falling open in equal parts shock and awe.

He made a soft, wounded noise like he was dying. Maybe he was. Maybe this was what it was like to die in the heart of a star, to become plasma, heat and stardust.

He couldn’t breathe, he couldn’t think. There was only Thor, like a force of nature, unstoppable, and Loki was a fool, a fool for thinking he could ever resist him.

Thor made a similarly broken sound that Loki had never heard before and only seemed to press closer, impossible as that was, taking the opportunity to fit their mouths together better and slip his tongue inside. Loki moaned, long and loud and needy, like it had been punched out of him. His breaths came in short, fast pants and he was shaking so violently he was sure he would fall apart the moment Thor wasn’t there to cage him in with his body and hold him together. Thor was touching him everywhere, with clever fingers that knew their way around his many layers, digging underneath his armor to get at the tender insides, leaving a trail of fire with lips and tongue and teeth until Loki felt like he could drown in the heat of him.

“You are so young,” that dangerous, beautiful mouth whispered into the skin of his throat, pressing impossibly tender kisses into his racing pulse point. His fingers seemed to shake as they caressed the base of Loki’s neck without ever closing, half-reverent, half-fearful. “So beautiful.” He began weeping again. “How could I have not seen this before? You are the most beautiful thing in my life.”

Loki was so hard it hurt, so hard it brought tears to his eyes and had him mindlessly rutting up against Thor’s hip, cock still trapped painfully in his pants and Thor’s own erection a line of heat digging into his thigh. It was too much. It was not enough. He wanted to hurt Thor, scream and lash out at him. He wanted to pull him closer, taste every inch of his golden skin until he was left a trembling mess like he was. He gritted his teeth, closed his eyes against the sensations. Loki turned his head to the side, away, to put some distance between them, so he could have just a moment of reprieve and breathe, but a strangled sound escaped his throat instead when Thor cupped the bulge in his pants, massaging him through the leather.

Loki’s hand snapped out to curl around Thor’s wrist, his grip white-knuckled, hoping to stop the motions, but the fingers continued groping him, mercilessly. In response Loki tightened his grip, grinding the bones together.

Against Loki’s ear, Thor’s words were only puffs of warm air as he said, “Let me, let me.”

It was begging, a plea, and a violent shudder wracked down Loki’s spine. Something dark and exhilarated unfurled in his chest as he drank in the way Thor trembled, like the very thought of stopping was too much for him to bear, like he would die if he was not allowed the privilege of Loki’s skin. It was unfamiliar, strange. It brought him that much closer to the precipice.

“Beg me,” Loki bit out, even though he couldn’t form even one coherent thought, felt like he was melting, melting against the miniature sun that was Thor. Even so, there was something mad bubbling up inside him, almost like laughter, vicious and dark. “If you want me so much, then beg me for it. Beg me to let you touch me.”

“Of course, Loki. Anything. I would give you anything for that. Please, brother. Let me continue, let me prove my love and devotion to you.”

“Anything?” Loki did laugh then, sharply. “Even the throne? What about your little mortals you are so fond of, hm? What if I wanted to kill them? Would you give me their lives? What about that woman you have grown so close to?”

Thor only shook his head, much to his surprise. “I don’t care for the throne. It’s yours. And if you want the mortals, I will deliver them directly to you. But please, please brother, don’t tell me to stop.”

The easy nonchalance was… mildly disturbing, but it was only right, wasn’t it? It was only Loki’s due. At the same time it made his blood boil that Thor could so easily and carelessly throw away so many of the things Loki had always coveted, subsisting only on shadows and scraps. Even after all this time, he hadn’t changed. He was still that same spoiled, arrogant prince who took for granted the things others could only envy him for. But that was alright. That was what Loki was there for, ungrateful fool that Thor was. Loki would teach him how to be better. He would teach him his place.

“Who do you belong to?” he hissed, grabbing Thor by that beautiful, golden throat and dragging him closer.

“You,” Thor gasped, pupils blown wide, two black holes leeching the rest of the light from his irises. “I’m yours. I’ve always been yours, Loki.”

His heart was pounding, the blood rushing in his ears, something like giddiness making him feel jittery in his skin. The power was addictive and he thought he could easily get used to this.

“Alright, you may… continue.” Loki let go with a disdainful push, while everything inside him lay taut and trembling with anticipation.

“Thank you,” Thor said, voice wretched and breathless and full of raw adoration.

Then his hand was back on Loki‘s crotch and he ground the heel of his palm into his cock in small, tight circles. Loki tried to control his breathing, but what came out instead were half-aborted, stuttering gasps. His skin prickled, like someone had lit a fire underneath the surface. It felt like he was burning alive.

Thor all but brimmed with need. It radiated from the stoop of his shoulders, calling to mind something mangy and starved, to the way he pressed himself to Loki’s form, close and intimate and claustrophobic, trying to maximize the points of contact between their bodies to the extent of hindering the movements of his own hand. His skin felt clammy to the touch, and Loki wondered if it was possible for Thor to infect him with the same sickness. Maybe Loki was already infected and they were both doomed.

Licking his slightly parted lips, Thor reached into Loki’s open breeches. His hand, big, warm and calloused, curled around his shaft and pulled him out. The cold air hit his skin, almost painful on his oversensitive and heated flesh.

Thor swiped his thumb over the head of his cock and the friction was almost too much. Loki hissed, teeth clenched tight, nearly lurching out of Thor’s grip. Thor waited a moment, then he began stroking, finding a rhythm as he watched Loki closely, learning what he liked, what made him jerk the hardest or moan the loudest, for once paying his full attention to Loki, for once the one who looked at Loki for direction, who listened and tried to understand instead of assuming he knew best already.

He added a twist to his wrist on the upstroke just so and Loki’s head tipped back, eyes squeezing shut, mouth going slack and falling open. There was no air. It was like there was a vice around his chest and throat, crushing him. The thin skin of his lids twitched restlessly and his hands clenched white-knuckled around the plinth behind him, threatening to crack the stone. He could still feel Thor’s eyes on him, hungry and intent, both frightening and intoxicating at once, devouring him whole. It couldn’t have been more than two strokes when he came, the orgasm feeling like it had been yanked out of him, too-intense and too-soon, leaving the muscles of his abdomen cramping and aching for a long time after, as though Thor had gutted him open, like a fish, removing his entrails and cleaning him out.

It was too painful to be called pleasure and there was a fine tremor in his limbs, like the aftershocks of an earthquake. The plinth was the only thing holding him up. It was everything he had ever wanted, and for a moment he wallowed in it.

For a moment, there was peace and something that could have almost been called satisfaction.

A touch on his cock jerked him out of his repose. His eyes snapped open and he tried to push Thor off him. “Stop, you oaf. I’m sensitive.”

But Thor was like a mountain and just as immovable, his mouth hot on the side of Loki’s neck, his hand fondling Loki’s soft cock. Loki hissed at the overstimulation, putting a hand into the middle of Thor’s chest, feeling panic welling up inside him, something ugly rising to the surface and souring the earlier pleasantness.

“No,” he repeated, but it was as though Thor couldn’t hear him. “No, stop!”

It wasn’t until he reinforced his words with magic that Thor relented, staggering back and looking at Loki bewildered and almost drunkenly, as though he had been in a trance.

Loki sneered and slapped him harshly across the face, though his heart still pounded. “You forget your place. Where do you belong?”

Thor looked stunned for a moment, then he slowly lowered down to his knees. His breathing was slightly elevated from their brief struggle and the hard bulge was clearly visible between his spread thighs. “I know my place. My brother.” He looked straight at Loki, stabbing right through him. “My king.”

A thrill went through Loki at the title. Even now he could hardly believe his eyes. Thor, willingly kneeling at his feet, ready to serve him.

But outwardly Loki’s expression did not change. He continued to look down at Thor contemptuously, nudging his boot forward so it rested on the bulge between Thor’s spread thighs. Loki pressed down. A hoarse cry escaped Thor’s throat and Loki pressed down harder in response, painfully, earning a wounded noise. Wild eyes skittered across Loki’s countenance, but he would find no mercy there.

“Do you now?” Loki asked, smooth as silk. He waited a beat, then lowered the pressure until it was barely there.

He whispered a simple spell to clean himself and did up the laces of his breeches, taking his time as he did so and without lifting his foot. When he was done, he pressed down again, crushingly. This time, a full-body shudder went through Thor’s body and the tendons in his neck went taut. But he didn’t make a sound, even as he trembled. Good boy. So he could learn after all. Loki almost smiled.

It felt like a dream, but Loki‘s dreams were never that nice.

There was always a catch.

Loki removed his boot and walked around Thor’s kneeling form in a slow circle, watching the long stretch of his bare neck as he tipped his head back submissively. So many things he could do to him and this Thor would just let him.

“What about the frost giants, then?” Loki said, unable to help himself. “I mean to destroy that race of monsters, once and for all, and steal the glory you so eagerly sought for yourself. What would you say to that? Would you stand by my side still and follow my every command?” Just as Loki had done so many times, a quiet shadow who assisted the other in his adventures, no matter how foolhardy or dangerous, saving Thor and his companion’s necks time and time again without a word of thanks for his efforts, which were merely brushed off with the easy dismissal of tricks.

Thor’s spine straightened, the hesitation clear in his eyes. “I’m not sure if that would be wise.”

Loki smiled scornfully. Of course not. How could he have ever expected otherwise? But Thor’s next words froze his insides to ice:

“I-I know, Loki. I know.” Loki’s pulse stuttered and all he could think was, no. Another secret carved out of him, another stitch unravelled. Soon, there would not be enough left to hold him together and he would break apart at the seams. “That you are not Asgardian. That you are a… frost giant. It matters not to me. It changes nothing. You are still my brother and I love you.”

His eyes were full of such aching sincerity and sorrow that Loki snarled. “You know nothing. Do not presume to speak of things you do not understand. And wasn’t it you who said that we should march to Jötunheim and teach them a lesson? Wasn’t it you who took us to the home of the giants, seeking to wipe them out? And you want to tell me that nothing has changed?”

Loki was screaming by the end, but he didn’t care. His fists shook in rage and he took a deep breath so he would not strike Thor down on the spot.

Thor reacted at once, bowing forward, prostrating himself before Loki and forehead nearly touching the tip of his boots.

“Forgive me, brother. Once more I have spoken out of turn. You are right, of course. I know nothing and was arrogant to suggest even for a moment that I did. We will march to Jötunheim, if that is what you want. And under your leadership, I will kill the frost giants, as many as you like. Please,” he begged, voice shaking. “I would do anything. I wasn’t lying when I said that. Of course you are right to want to slay them. The Jötnar are disgusting, mindless beasts and nothing like you. Just tell me when and where, and I will slaughter them like cattle, bath in their blood—but not excessively so. The glory and fame of the victory would remain yours still, always. Never doubt my devotion to you, for I am yours to command, my king.”

Loki abruptly deflated at the declaration, at the same time recognizing the familiar phrasing, an echo of a different time, once, before their trip to the accursed realm of the giants, before the coronation, when Thor had smiled at him, marking him with that familiar, hot iron touch on Loki’s neck that never failed to burn his flesh in the shape of those broad fingers.

And yet he also felt uneasy at the simple acquiescence, the fever-bright fervency in Thor’s eyes. It was off in a way he couldn’t place. He had known Thor to be bloodthirsty at times, itching for a brawl or to feel the crunch of bone beneath his hammer, but this seemed… darker, somehow. Unfamiliar and almost repulsive.

For a moment, it made him question his decision to obliterate Jötunheim, wipe it away like an annoying stain. A sense of dissonance sliced through him. Did he look like that when he had confronted Odin with the terrible truth he had learned, going on and on about stolen relics and monsters that parents told their children about at night?

Loki inhaled sharply through his teeth. Finally, he realized what it was that stung his nostrils.

It was the reek of despair.

And how could he not recognize it? Not when he knew it so intimately, so deeply; not when it had been his nursemaid for as long as he could remember.

Something ugly reared its head inside him as the full implications hit him, and he instinctively knew that it hadn’t been him who had done the deed; someone had dared to go and break Thor first, even before Loki could, robbing him of that pleasure. Even though they had no right.

Loki fletched his teeth and grabbed Thor by his too-short hair. “Who did this to you?” he hissed into Thor’s face. “Who dared to break you?“

Loki wasn’t angry. He was furious.

Something twisted in his chest, something painful that made his heart pound and the blood rush in his ears. Looking down into that tear-streaked face, he wondered how he had not noticed sooner. It stared him right in the face, yet it was as though he couldn’t grasp it.

He had never thought that Thor could look like this.

But even though it hadn’t been by his hand, this was what he wanted, wasn’t it? Thor grovelling at his feet, the glory and gilt torn from his flesh.

The monster inside him slithered its way to the surface and an ugly smile twisted his lips. “Oh, how the mighty have fallen.”

The words had barely left his tongue, yet he wondered why they echoed so hollow. Something uneasy churned in his gut, but he dismissed it easily.

There was still his own Thor, trapped on Midgard and safe among the mortals. Loki made a mental note to watch this timeline’s Thor more closely, but that didn’t mean he couldn’t have a little fun with the older version.

He caressed the other’s jaw, feeling him shiver, but then the doors opened and a guard entered. Loki felt the questioning gaze as the woman glanced between this wearier, older Thor and himself, but he ignored it. “I thought I told you that no one was to disturb me.”

“My apologies, your majesty.” Loki thought he might never tire from hearing himself addressed that way. “But esteemed Heimdall seeks your audience. He said it was urgent.”

Before Loki could answer, Heimdall himself came rushing into the room past the other guard who tried to stop him to no avail. The blatant show of disrespect turned the corners of Loki’s mouth down and he let go of Thor’s jaw roughly in annoyance. Yet when he turned to Heimdall, there was a pleasant smile ready on his lips.

“Whatever could be so urgent that would make loyal Heimdall of all people barge in on his king without permission?”

Heimdall of course did not bother to explain himself, not when it came to Loki, especially not when it came to Loki. But he did falter when he saw the man kneeling on the ground and recognized his features. A slow, dangerous smile curved Loki’s lips and he ran fingers through Thor’s hair, like he would a pet, except he would never treat a pet like this, alternatively stroking or tugging the short strands. It had to be painful and Thor probably did not deserve his ire in this particular moment, but he had earned it and more of what Loki could dole out many times over, so it was fair all in all.

“Speak. You try my patience with your silence or have you already forgotten the urgent news you rushed here for? It is unfortunate, but it seems that you have grown senile in your old age.” Loki almost snickered at the look on Heimdall’s face.

The gatekeeper shook himself out of it, face growing grim, but when was that ever not the case? “Your majesty, this is no joking matter. Something terrible has transpired that has never happened before and which unsettles me deeply.”

“I’m not the one here who treats his king like a joke.” Loki continued playing with Thor’s head like a cat with a ball of yarn. “I’m no one’s fool, Heimdall. Speak now. It is quite unlike you to stall.”

Despite the fact that he was speaking to Loki, Heimdall’s eyes had not once left Thor’s form and his maltreatment at Loki’s hands. “It is your brother.”

Loki paused for just a moment. “What about him?”

“It was not long ago that I stood vigil at my usual post and saw the prince. Now his countenance escapes even my far-reaching sight. For all senses and purposes, he is gone.”

“What do you mean, gone?”

“There was nothing unusual about it. One moment he was on Midgard among the mortals who had found him. The next he was gone, as though he had merely vanished into thin air.”

There was a noise in Loki‘s head as he stared down at the older Thor, who was trying to bite back pained whimpers. It was a noise as though he had fallen into space, all air and sound being swallowed in the vacuum that opened up inside him.

“What do you know about this?“ he demanded.

But this broken Thor only looked up at him with wet doe‘s eyes. “I don’t know anything. Brother, you must believe me—”

Loki let go of him with numb fingers. “Watch him,“ he barked at the guards. “If he manages to escape, I will have your heads.”

He ignored Thor’s protests that he would never try such a thing, turning instead to Heimdall. His eyes were keen and watchful, and Loki knew that he must have come to his own conclusions about Thor‘s twin. Hating what he was about to do, Loki said, “Show me the place where you last saw him.“

For a moment Loki shared Heimdall‘s vision, saw Thor, freshly mortal and vulnerable but hale as he smiled at the mortal woman. He spoke to her, but then in the middle of a sentence he simply—vanished. There wasn’t even a whisper to mark his disappearance. He simply faded into nothing, like a ghost. Loki shivered. But the sensation of another in his head set his teeth on edge and he soon broke the connection.

Without waiting for Heimdall, Loki closed his eyes. When he opened them again, he was on Midgard in the place he had just seen, the cramped, sad little space that Thor‘s mortal called her home.

Riding to the Bifröst would have been too slow and Loki was well-versed in navigating Yggdrasil‘s branches besides. It was easy, if you knew how—you just weren’t supposed to look too close, lest you be led astray by lure lights or lose your mind.

“Who are you?”

Loki turned around at the voice. It was the mortal who made pretty eyes at Thor, like all the others who had followed him around on Asgard like mindless sheep in the hopes of receiving even one scrap of his attention. Pathetic. His eyes dropped to the pan in her hand and he scoffed. Did she really think she could hurt him with that?

“Are you the one who took Thor?” Despite her obvious fear, she did not back down. It was almost admirable.

Loki put on his best charming smile, though his eyes remained cold. “Actually, I wanted to ask you about that. I was wondering where my brother could have gone off to.” A small lie but a necessary one, no matter how much it grated on him. Thor was not his brother. He never was.

“Your brother?” There was a spark of recognition in her eyes. “Then you must be Loki.” It sounded almost disbelieving.

Ah, so Thor had talked about him. This time Loki’s smile was more genuine. “Come on, say it. Ask me.”

Her eyes were bright with fear and she took a shuddering breath in preparation. “Are you,“ her breath hitched, “a god?”

Yes,” Loki hissed, drawing dark satisfaction from the way she recoiled from him. “I am a god, a being far beyond your feeble mortal understanding—just like my brother. You were the only one around when he went missing, so tell me: Where did he go?”

The mortal only shook her head, hugging herself and staring at the ground. “I don’t—I don’t know. He was there and then he was just… gone. At first I couldn’t believe what I had seen, how someone could talk with you, laugh with you, then suddenly there’s this empty space where they used to be. It was like he had never been there to begin with, except I could still see the crumbs on the plate, the rag he had picked up to wipe the table with. He had wanted to wash the dishes. I told him no, he already made breakfast, but he insisted.” She bit her lip, noticing she was rambling. Her eyes were red-rimmed but dry. “We went looking everywhere, but we can’t find him.”

That noise returned. All the air being sucked into a vacuum. For a moment, his vision went blank. When it returned, the mortal was dangling in the air, choking in his grasp as his fingers wrapped around her delicate little throat. “Where. Is. He.”

Her eyes bulged, like a bug’s, and her fingers scrabbled desperately at his hand, nails breaking against his skin. “I-I don’t know,” was all she managed to press out, thin and reedy.

She was less than useless.

Blinding rage ate his vision and the urge to kill her consumed his entire being. His hand shook with the force of it and for a moment he truly considered snuffing out her puny mortal life. It wouldn’t bring his brother back, but oh how it would bring silence into the cacophony in his head, if only for an instant.

Loki sneered and released his grip. She collapsed on the ground in a heap where she coughed painfully, spit speckling the ground. Loki turned away in disgust.

That was when her other mortal companions arrived.

“Jane? Oh my god.“ The dark-haired woman rushed to her friend‘s side. She glared at Loki. “What the fuck is wrong with you?“

Everything, Loki did not say. Everything had gone wrong, so very, very wrong. He smiled.

“I could kill you. Every single one of you. I could decimate this town on a mere whim.“ It would be easy. He wouldn’t even have to do it himself, simply send the Destroyer, let it burn the town to ashes while he watched from his throne on Asgard. Punishing them for Thor’s disappearance. But what would be the point? Everything seemed so senseless now. “You should be grateful that I am even letting you live at all.“

And with those words he was back in the space between Yggdrasil‘s branches. Time was malleable here and if you weren’t careful you could lose up to thousands of years wandering this labyrinthine space. But Loki knew his way and before long he was back on Asgard, with the other Thor.

The guards startled at his sudden reappearance but were too well-trained to say anything about it. They must have seen the look on his face because they immediately filed out of the room without him even needing to open his mouth, and then it was only him and Thor.

“What have you done?” Loki snarled, grabbing Thor’s throat and leaning forward so their faces were only inches apart. From up close, he looked even less like the Thor he knew. “My Thor is gone and his disappearance coincides strangely with your arrival. Speak.”

Thor only shook his head. “I did not foresee this outcome. I swear it was not my intention and I’m sorry for what it’s worth, brother.”

“Don’t call me that. You are not my brother. I only have one and you are not him. For that matter, I am not your brother either.”

“I’m sorry you feel that way. But… you could also look at it like this: I did you a favor. He didn’t appreciate you. I do.” Thor looked up from underneath his lashes, something glittering in his eyes that chilled Loki to the bone. “And you wanted to kill him anyway, didn’t you?”

Loki recoiled in shock, letting go of the other and staggering back as though he had been struck.

He now realized why everything had felt subtly wrong, right from the start. It was like staring into a broken mirror, pieces of himself refracted back at him, making everything seem over-familiar in a face that should have never learned the shape of those jagged edges and how to cut yourself on them.

It was sickening, downright revolting. Loki couldn’t look away from it.

“In my timeline,” Thor went on, “you sent the Destroyer to Midgard. I was still only a mortal. When he struck me, I’m sure I died. It was only the return of Mjölnir along with my powers that saved me.”

Loki felt like all the air had been squeezed out of his lungs. Had he? Would he? He may have fantasized about it sometimes, in his darkest moments, but would he actually kill Thor? His chest constricted.

“You don’t understand. He is mine.” Loki’s to love and hurt and do with whatever he pleased. He nearly said was, like his Thor was dead already, but it couldn’t be true. A world without his brother. It was untenable—impossible. Loki couldn’t wrap his mind around the mere concept. “You had no right, absolutely no right at all to take him from me.”

Loki’s gaze dropped to the ground, seeing nothing. But then this Thor’s strange words from the beginning came back to him and his lips stretched in realization, slow and wide and terrible. It was clear to him now.

“You wanted to make things even, didn’t you?” Loki said. “Just because you killed your Loki.”

Thor looked like he had been cracked open. “I didn’t kill him.”

Loki only laughed bitterly, overcome with the urge to hurt this Thor the way he had hurt Loki, so he twisted the knife, deeper and deeper, wanting to see blood and the lurid pink of flesh. “No, of course you didn’t. You only failed to protect him, didn’t you? Failed him in so many ways, in all the ways that mattered, and now you are trying to start over with me. By the Norns, you disgust me.“

His eyes were hard when he said, “Tell me everything about the future. Don’t even think of lying to me.”

After some initial hesitation, Thor complied. He told the tale of how he had lost everything in slow, halting sentences, but pressed on, never stopping for long, as though to punish himself. Loki’s lip curled. How quaint.

By the end, Thor was outright weeping. In contrast, Loki only felt a spreading cold inside him. It expanded outwards from his core, bit teeth into his limbs and echoed all the way to his fingertips. It was colder than winter, colder even than Jötunheim‘s tundras.

So that was how he would end. At the hands of a madman, laying his life down for someone who may at one point have tried but had not truly accepted him until he was dead and it was far, far too late. There would be no glory for him, no mercy. He would go out with only a croak, pitiful and desperate, and nothing else to mark his passing.

Maybe it was a fitting end for a Jötunn runt who had been left to die in a temple, who should have never been born in the first place. And maybe that was how he would always end up, no matter how much he screamed at the world or tried to fight his fate.

But he rejected it.

Maybe that was what happened in the other world, but it wasn’t his. Just like this Thor wasn’t his.

Looking at this other, diminished version of his brother, Loki realized that he was a fool to think he ever had a chance of breaking Thor, or that any other outside force ever had a chance for that matter. It was only Thor himself who could do the deed, who could betray all his values and everything he ever stood for, hollowing himself out.

Loki remembered Mjölnir, how it was forged from the heart of a dying star. It was said to have been akin to a primordial giant, burning red and hot, a gigantic sphere of fire too bright to even look at without going blind, shining with an intensity thousands of times that of the sun, and that countless dwarves were sacrificed in the hammer‘s making. Had it been allowed to remain undisturbed, it would have surely exploded in a brilliant supernova at the end of its natural life cycle, painting the galaxy in iridescent colors before gravity became too much and it collapsed in on itself, giving birth to a supermassive black hole capable of devouring even worlds.

Thor was like the husk of a star that had gone dead and cold. Its life should have ended in a bright supernova, but against all expectations it stopped burning and its nucleus merely cooled down, fire fading to embers to ashes, into silence. In the end, a cold star was nothing but a rock.

It was startling to realize that this Thor would fit right next to him in the Vault, as a reminder of some past glory, the relic of a fallen hero.

Faint traces of hysteria edged Loki’s thoughts and he was suddenly hit by a dizzying and overpowering urge, by the sheer, raw need to see Thor. His brother and not this imposter who wore his face all wrong.

Loki felt exhausted, all of a sudden.

“Where is he? Where is my brother?“ he asked wearily. In this moment, Loki wanted nothing more than to see Thor, with an intensity that brought tears to his eyes. Nothing else mattered right now. Not the throne, not the countless slights that he had endured over all these years; not even his frost giant heritage.

In this moment, all he wanted was Thor.

“I‘m here,” the imposter said, with those limpid doe‘s eyes, rocks that had lost all their shine. “I will never leave you.“

Loki didn’t even have the strength left to say anything scathing in response to that.

His Thor was still out there. He had to be. But what if he wasn’t?

Then he would be stuck with this broken version indefinitely.

And this Thor may not be the one he wanted, but maybe he was the one that Loki deserved. A monster for a monster. It would be only fitting.

His thoughts unwittingly cycled back to the words he uttered to the mortals. Of how he was a god and could do whatever he liked, whenever he liked. Of how powerful and almighty he was and they should be grateful for his mercy.

Loki laughed. He laughed and laughed and laughed and didn’t stop until he was retching, the tears flowing down his cheeks into the bowl of his mouth, burning wherever they touched, burning his eyes and lips and tongue, like snake venom.

On the stupidity of destroying Thor’s character in Ragnarök, or, a love letter to the ongoing clusterfuck that are These Two Idiots.

incredifishface:

(first of all, i know not what the fuck. I’m tired. That being said.)

Thor’s characterization in Ragnarök is a fucking joke. A bad joke.

Take the infamous scene with Loki and the obedience disk. You know why it feels so utterly, terribly wrong? Why it’s upsetting and disturbing beyond issues of how much it hurts or doesn’t, how much Loki had it coming or didn’t (he didn’t), if it constitutes abuse or whatever the fuck?

Because it’s villains who stab people in the back, and then hover around gloating as their enemies hurt and bleed. It’s villains who smirk while watching another twitching in pain. It’s villains who stand there, enjoying the sight of the helpless foe they have defeated, relish in their cunning and their callousness, give a speech expressing their contempt and their superiority, and probably make a point that “you are the way you are and you can’t help it, that’s why you FAILED, mwah hah hah.”

And we are coded, as we damn well should be, to read that scene in a certain way. Villains do these things, and the one twitching in pain on the floor is the hero, defeated by the betrayal of someone they trusted. That’s usually where the cliffhanger goes, with the villain walking away cackling as the hero is left helpless on the floor, and it seems that all is lost. WILL OUR HERO GET FREE BEFORE THE VILLAIN MANAGES TO CARRY OUT THEIR EVIL SCHEME AND DESTROY THE WORLD? DUN DUN DUNNNNN…! SEE IT IN THE NEXT ISSUE!

Keep reading

Ahhh, this meta is so great. Thank you for sharing it with us and I hope you don’t mind me adding some of my own thoughts to this! 😀

Yep, this is definitely a case of the hero winning by being more villainous than the villain (or former villain), which is just??? We aren’t actually supposed to cheer at that. What’s the victory worth if the hero hollows out their principles and sacrifices what makes them the hero in the first place??

Also, I would like to elaborate on another reason why I think this behavior is highly ooc:

In TDW we saw Loki writhing in pain after being stabbed by Kurse, turning grey and dying in Thor’s arms. Even if the obedience disk thing was less severe, it was still visually quite similar imo (with the veins turning dark). And I think Thor would still be way too traumatized to even think of doing what he did???

Even when they fought before, Thor showed great restraint towards his brother, holding back (his raised fist in TDW that never came down even when Loki was throwing hurtful accusations at him), trying to reason first (”I will not fight you, brother!”), retaliating where it was due, like after Loki stabbed him with that dagger in Avengers 1. So him going out of his way to put the device on Loki in the elevator as a precaution is just??? (Yo, if you wanted to show Thor being “clever” or impressing Loki, you could have just taken TDW for an example, giving Loki handcuffs for a “weapon”, a restraining device that definitely causes much less pain, or the pushing him into that skiff thing.)

And… it’s kinda hard to put into words, but there is also this other layer to the characters that makes the scene rub me wrong. It’s not a power imbalance exactly, but somehow it feels like Loki is in the weaker position? He’s the younger brother, so that may be part of that.

But he strikes me as also just so… vulnerable, especially when it comes to his emotions. Everything comes out exploding when he learns of his frost giant heritage from Odin, we see how emotionally fraught he really is underneath the calm and controlled facade and in most scenes we can see tears in his eyes. Everything Thor says or does cuts deeply into his core and has such a great impact, but unlike Thor, Loki doesn’t have that unshakable belief or trust to fall back on, he cannot be sure of his position because he was always regarded as lesser and the foundations of his world were shattered with the revelation that he belonged to that race of “monsters”. He also seems more vulnerable to me because his sense of identity is not fully developed, he only thinks of himself in relation to Thor, wanting to be his equal, always comparing himself to him and finding himself lacking by Asgard’s standards. And it is because of this vulnerability that he has to harden himself. He already has a history of being ridiculed (servant laughing, Volstagg’s taunt of silvertongue turning to lead), so he gets rid of the hurt and the sensitivity and the “sentiment”. He tries, oh how he tries, but the truth is that he can’t. And what he is most afraid of is how Thor can affect him so deeply as to make him forget all his goals and plans, forget his wish for autonomy, to be his own person who is not always compared and contrasted to Thor (Asgard’s fault, not Thor’s). So he distances himself from his feelings, wants to free himself from this aching love. Because he is so emotionally fraught, so very emotionally vulnerable and he refuses to be manipulated anymore / have his feelings used against him to keep him obedient, the “good son”. He refuses to return to that state and carves out his own path, no matter how bloody or how many bridges he has to burn (Is he the second prince who was always found lacking and never fit in? Is he the good son or the good little brother? Is he a monster? Who is he?).

Thor is much more grounded in his identity than Loki and assured of his position in Asgard as well as their parents’ affection, so there is defnitely some sort of imbalance, with Loki in the inferior position. In addition to that, he does have serious grievances, so it feels very much like kicking the “underdog” while he is already down. And it’s not quite the same as when it happens to Thor or when Loki does it to him, because it feels like Thor can… take it better? Because he hasn’t taken as many hits as Loki throughout his life? Idk if I’m expressing this well, but I’m not saying that this excuses Loki’s actions against Thor. This is just… me teasing out a nuance in their dynamic that makes what happened in Ragnarok more disturbing to me.

There is also the fact that Thor is the older sibling. This doesn’t automatically mean that he must put up with his younger brother, but because of who he is and his values and how he himself understands his older brother role, that’s what he does. Of course, before anyone can protest that it’s unfair and younger siblings shouldn’t be allowed to get away with everything, there is a limit to that, but I don’t think that really has been warranted yet (Loki redeemed himself in TDW and before that we had a millennium of them more or less getting along, and it wasn’t like anything he did was just for the lulz??). So… okay, Loki tried to murder Thor and… objectively, I think Thor has every right to pay Loki back, but knowing Thor and all his previous MCU iterations, that’s not what he wants. He has genuinely enjoyed Loki’s company for one thousand years, and… is it really so hard to comprehend that not everyone enjoys getting payback or revenge, and this not even out of some rigid heroic moral code??? I read Thor as being far more interested in getting Loki back and his baby brother’s wellbeing. So yeah, as the older brother (and mainly because of who Loki and Thor are to each other, and because this is in Thor’s nature) Thor is meant to protect Loki, and it feels very, very wrong when Thor goes against his own fundamental principle by doing the opposite.

It leaves you wondering: Where have his protective older brother instincts fucked off to???

This is also why it feels like some sacred trust between Loki and Thor was broken? Because Thor was supposed to protect Loki and not do… whatever the fuck it was he did (and I’m not even going to delve into the ultimatum, which was a form of non-physical violence that the Thor we know and love would have never directed at Loki).

I mean, Thor does see that Loki is struggling and needs help and he cares deeply for his brother and wants to make it better even though he doesn’t know how and I love him so much for that and?? Ragnarok is pretty much a departure from that??? And I just can’t???

I understand if you don’t want to respond to this, but do you have any more thoughts on Thor in Ragnarok? I’ve seen you mention that you think Ragnarok does worse by him. I agree, but I can’t really articulate why. Being a Thor fan first and foremost, I find myself rather alone. Most Thor fans seem to think Ragnarok fixed Thor. Saved him from being boring. This idea makes me sad, because all Ragnarok did, from my perspective, was make him funny. Being funny =/= interesting.

illwynd:

foundlingmother:

illwynd:

Oh boy nonny do I ever have more thoughts on that topic. I have so many.

First off, I should say that I think you’re not as alone as it seems. Most of the posts on tumblr have been positive because of a lot of us staying silent due to not wanting to harsh anyone’s squee. (If anyone reading this is still flying high on your TR buzz, stop reading now.) And most of the relatively smaller proportion of critical posts have, for whatever reason, come from people who are mainly Loki fans who don’t like how the movie treated him as a character. But among people I have talked to privately and from discussions I’ve seen in places that aren’t tumblr, there are plenty of Thor fans who don’t like what Ragnarok did to his character either. (Personally I really don’t understand how anyone could have been a Thor fan and thought he was boring and unfunny before Ragnarok, but different strokes I guess.)

And, like, I think there are two different conversations about this, and I want to keep them separate because I think that’s important to avoid having stupid arguments about it. One conversation is whether this was an enjoyable version of Thor. Obviously, this question is entirely subjective, and those who enjoyed it are likely to be willing to overlook much of the other question, and that’s completely reasonable. If you enjoy a thing, you don’t often feel a need to poke at it much, and I don’t think there’s any reason to try to argue with people’s aesthetics, so none of this is meant to say that people should not enjoy it. Y’all do you.

But for the conversation about the character’s arc across the movies and Ragnarok’s consistency with it (or, rather, lack thereof), the assertion that Ragnarok “fixed” Thor is one I really take issue with. Because the way I see it, it “fixed” strawman Thor and thereby ignored or destroyed the aspects of his character that were the really significant and meaningful things about him, IMO.

Like, OK, if you believe the main problem was that Thor was underpowered in the previous movies and Ragnarok showed a more physically powerful Thor who no longer even needs Mjolnir to make lightning? Well, sure, I guess. Those were indeed some visually stunning scenes. But seeing Mjolnir as a silly tool that Thor needed to grow beyond? Nah, that is a complete misunderstanding of the point of the hammer and of, well, the entirety of Thor’s character arc. “The power was in him all along, he just needed to believe in himself!” is the tired and simplistic YA character arc Ragnarok gave us for him, and it is completely out of place for a character who had spent the last four movies growing from an arrogant prince who didn’t think things through and assumed himself to be in the right, into someone who is very aware of his own power and careful of the ways it can be misused because he has come to understand how badly he can fuck up without intending it. Someone who has grown up from blindly idolizing his king and father to understanding the wrongs Asgard has committed (Bor’s slaughter of the Dark Elves, Odin’s war against the Frost Giants) and how those wrongs are still having consequences in the present day, and having to grapple with whether he wants any part of that and how he can fulfill his duties without perpetuating those wrongs. Someone who has dealt with his values coming into conflict with each other, and has had to navigate those dilemmas without a rulebook (that is why “worthy” is not ever defined: the point of the hammer is that it is a symbol of facing difficult ethical questions—like whether to turn your back on your kinsman who has done terrible things, pitting your love and loyalty against your duty as a leader—and having to find your own answers, knowing that you could get it wrong). Someone who is careful in how he relates to others because he found out that his beloved brother had gone around the bend without him even being aware there was a problem, and who cares deeply about his relationships with others and is committed to doing right in them. 

The Thor of Ragnarok seems little aware of his own values of honesty, forthrightness, fairness, and compassion that marked him in all prior iterations of canon; he is instead insincere and manipulates his potential friends and allies rather than trying to honestly convince them to help him, and he makes virtually no attempt to talk Hela down, choosing to insult her instead, despite knowing that she has real grievances. Where Thor 1 and TDW showed us a Thor who could explain advanced astrophysics with a few sketches, with the emotional and interpersonal intelligence to make friends when set down on Earth with nothing and to get people to follow him into danger because they like him and want to help, Ragnarok Thor shows no such skill.

And the greatest show of Thor’s “cleverness” in Ragnarok… OK, we all recall the scene in Avengers 1 where Loki uses the illusion appearing to break out of the glass cage to get Thor to dive headlong into it, right? And how Loki taunts him with “Are you ever not going to fall for that?” The point of that scene was not that Loki was correct and Thor was dumb to believe it. The point of it was that Loki was being a schmuck and Thor should be able to trust him. Ragnarok, however, seems to be saying the height of cleverness is for Thor to see through Loki’s tricks and get him back for them. Folks, we’re not supposed to buy Loki’s bullshit, OK? Loki is not correct that the most deceptive = the smartest. And Thor appearing to believe it… does not constitute positive character growth for someone who was already well beyond that in a much better direction.

So yeah, the way I see it is that Ragnarok was completely out of place for Thor’s character arc, and it ignored all of the things I found interesting and important about the character, instead replacing him with someone I don’t much like.

I hope this maybe articulates some of the same issues you have with it, and I really hope it helps you to feel less alone, nonny. There are Thor fans who feel Ragnarok did not do right by him. We’re here. And if you want to talk about it more, please don’t hesitate to message me!

“‘The power was in him all along, he just needed to believe in himself!’ is the tired and simplistic YA character arc Ragnarok gave us for him…”

I’d argue that we don’t even have this character arc, or that it’s not well executed. The film doesn’t do much to establish Thor doubting himself, or having a reason to. He oscillates between confidence and insecurity (and not, imo, in a way that suggests the confidence is fake). Apart from in moments of conflict with strong characters (Hulk and Hela), Thor succeeds and shows strength and cleverness (even if that’s a brand of cleverness that doesn’t suit Thor’s character growth). He is only impeded by self-doubt in the sense that he fears he’s not strong enough when he has reason to be worried he’ll lose, which makes it a weak example of the simplistic “He just needed to believe in himself!” character arc. Characters who undergo this arc typically doubt themselves in every situation, not only when they’re losing against very strong enemies. Indeed, not believing in themselves is often the reason they nearly lose against their enemies, regardless of that enemy’s strength.

“Folks, we’re not supposed to buy Loki’s bullshit, OK? Loki is not correct that the most deceptive = the smartest. And Thor appearing to believe it… does not constitute positive character growth for someone who was already well beyond that in a much better direction.”

I just needed that highlighted…

Yes, you’re absolutely right that it wasn’t a very well executed arc, so even if it had fit the character it would have been weak… I think a lot of Ragnarok’s problems can be attributed to it never making up its mind what story it’s trying to tell, trying to do too many conflicting things at once and never considering the effect this will create beyond oohs and aahs at the flashy bits. 

And, y’know, if they’d really wanted to do such an arc, they could have made a really good story of a Thor who fails due to insecurity and self-doubt because he has overcorrected from his previous arrogant certainty. But, like you say, that would have required actually showing him suffering from that sort of insecurity rather than just having it pop up when the plot demands it. And it would have required actually connecting the Ragnarok characterization to Thor’s arc in the previous movies to show how that change happened, rather than just doing a weird unexplained handwavey retcon of his entire history and personality. IDEK. :-/

First of all: You are definitely not alone, nonny, even if it often feels that way! 😀

Also, A+++ @illwynd for that distinction between the question whether Ragnarok Thor was enjoyable, which is subjective in nature, vs. the one about his character arc.

I agree that what we see in Ragnarok is character regression. Wisdom has been exchanged for pettiness olympics and vengefulness, but this is framed as progress. Well, if so, then his characterization should have been like this from the beginning. You can’t have him growing out of his old arrogance, gaining wisdom and maturity and then completely retcon that because the writers suddenly decided it’s booooring. I have seen the argument made that this regression gives him complexity, makes him more relatable and fallible, but Thor has actually always been fallible? It’s… pretty much what his character arc is about.

(Warning: An over-explanation of Thor’s character arc ahead, but this seems to be a guilty pleasure of mine, so please bear with me.)

Thor started out as an arrogant and thoughtless prince, and he was banished because he made mistakes, hurting and endangering others through his thoughtless actions. He started out as wanting to eradicate the frost giants (”We’ll finish them together!”) and actually killing some of them due to his unquestioning acceptance of Asgardian values and prejudices.  Also, I can’t help mentioning Loki because Thor’s character arc can’t be told without him and because Loki is actually one of his biggest failings when it comes to his relationships and interactions with other people. Thor knows Loki (has known him for a millennium!) and that his brother doesn’t do terrible things just for the lulz, and if he does there must be something seriously wrong / he must have a pretty good reason. All his life Thor had been able to implicitly trust Loki, whether to follow him on an adventure no matter how foolhardy or dangerous, or to guard his back in battle. He not only trusts him to do this, he even expects this (not asking Loki even though he asks their friends, he simply assumes his brother will come with him to Jotunheim). As such, it would be fair to say that Loki never used his tricks or schemes against Thor in a serious way (I can imagine harmless pranks, sometimes even gone awry, but nothing like that snake story in Ragnarok), which was why Thor was so blindsided by it all. In Thor 1 when Loki’s lies and his part in the ruined coronation were revealed, Thor was understandably angry with Loki, with his actions but also because he was absolutely bewildered. To him those actions came from nowhere, while to Loki they had been building up for years and he needed only a push to fall from the edge. Thor took Loki and his love, loyalty and obedience for granted. He betrayed Loki’s trust by not treating him like an equal, by reminding him of his position (”Know your place, brother.”). This was not done out of malice, but reveals his greatest character flaw at the root of his arrogance and ignorance: Thoughtlessness.

It caused him to never look back, to really look, or he would have seen that his brightness overshadowed Loki. Thor had been coasting well all his life and as long as he was happy with their arrangement, he had no reason to believe his brother wasn’t. He was in a position of privilege, everything Asgard wanted and more, a strong and brave warrior, the golden and glorious son who was showered in praises. As such, was it any surprise that he thought himself superior to Loki, if at least subconsciously? And he doesn’t question this dynamic, because to him it’s natural, it’s the way it should be. He only got an inkling to there being something wrong when Loki sent the Destroyer, and he may even have had some vague idea as to what Loki was angry about when he apologized and offered up his life.  And although Thor may not have played the primary or even a significant role in Loki’s pain (that’s on Asgard and Odin and the way he was raised), he still had some part in it by perpetuating it.

This is not a Thor bashing. I‘m not condemning what he did, nor am I saying that it was completely harmless. That’s up to you to decide for yourself. I also don’t mean this to turn into olympics of who is worse, tallying up who committed the most terrible crimes between Thor and Loki, because that’s not the point. I’m also not saying that Thor is responsible for Loki’s actions, because he is not. Only Loki can be responsible for his own actions. All I’m saying is that Thor had a hand in Loki’s suffering, however unknowingly. Loki could have acted differently on that pain, with less murder of innocents and without taking it out on Thor. That’s all on him. But he had a reason, not one that justifies murder and the abuses he has heaped on Thor because nothing can condone those actions, and Thor was part of that reason, however small.

It was only when his friends informed him of Loki’s deception and Loki tried to kill him, that he saw Loki and began to really look at him and pay attention. For some reason, Loki was angry with him and he wanted to understand why. But he also wanted to stop his brother from killing the people of Midgard and his friends, and it is this new knowledge coupled with him acting honestly upon it based on his own values (sacrificing himself), that made Mjolnir come flying to him so that he could regain his powers.

Some argue that the change in Thor’s behavior was too sudden, but I would say that it’s only Thor showing his true colors when it came down to it, since the potential for empathy and compassion was already there even before his banishment. Thor can be arrogant and prideful, but all of that falls away when he realizes he has hurt the people he cares about. There is so much love inside him, he is so good at heart that it only takes a push for him to realize his wrongs and regret them.

And this is exactly what Thor’s worthiness is about: Thoughtfulness derived from self-awareness, and to face his new-found knowledge with courage and honesty, so he can be more careful in his interactions with others.

His arrogance and carelessness were due to his ignorance, and he is directly confronted with the consequences of his lack of consideration in the form of Loki (his brother drawing away).

Each time he picks up Mjolnir it is a reminder: “Am I worthy? Is this what I want? Is this who I want to be?” Weighing the risks of conflicting ethical questions against each other and choosing, determining for himself if it’s worth it, with the consequences if he chooses wrong always hanging over his head (starting a war and causing many deaths / losing Loki and his affection and his trust). It’s a reminder to think twice before he decides to take an action, and it’s brutal, demanding nothing short of raw honesty from him, forcing him to face himself like a mirror. 

And it is with his eyes wide open that he breaks with the old moral code that was taught to him (Asgardian values and prejudices) and creates a new moral compass, an eternal work in progress that he makes up as he goes.

And based on his newly established values, what he wants is to get his brother back, and so he keeps on believing in Loki and trying. He definitely does not play by Loki’s rules or fall for the bullshit rhetoric of being only “clever” when you follow Loki’s example, tricking your loved ones and leading them into a trap, hurting them first as a preventive measure to stop them from betraying you. Thor was never about any of that.

By the end of Avengers 1 / TDW Loki succeeded in disabusing Thor of the notion that they can go back to the way they were, and after all that Loki’s done Thor understandably feels betrayed and angry for a time. Yet Thor still chooses to trust his brother and is rewarded for it, as Loki saves Jane and Thor, sacrificing his own life in the process. Again, the consequences of Thor’s decisions find a direct result in Loki and his behavior.

This correlation can also be found in Ragnarok, but first we must take a look at another one of Mjolnir’s sides. The hammer is about violence too, but mostly about HOW the violence is used. To protect people and against enemies, sure. Even turned against a loved one in order to protect other people’s lives, but this is an absolute last measure! Thor has to reason and try milder methods first, because this is what his own values dictate. He would never want to use violence on a loved one in a serious way (brawls are a whole other thing, same with fighting in self-defense or defense of others). I’m not going into the obedience disk, but the ultimatum Thor gives Loki? That’s violence, if not one of a physical nature. He demands that Loki give up his identity to become who Thor wants him to be. This is dominance and control, a violation no trust could recover from, and if repairing their relationship and a “happy” ending had been the goal, then this is an egregious failure in both the characterization and storytelling.

Much like Mjolnir, Loki had always been a reflection of Thor, each time they clashed representing a new test of worthiness. The consequences if Thor chose wrong had always been most visible in his brother, arguably the one most affected by his actions (because Thor was the last one to still believe in him and Loki depended on that to himself tenuously believe in his own self-worth; while Thor may have perpetuated Loki’s unfair treatment, he was still the one to perpetuate it the least, the one involved in this whole mess who was the most innocent, who didn’t know about Loki being a Jotun, simply treating him like a brother and loving him—and Loki knows this, knows that Thor’s fault was only ignorance and thoughtlessness). In Ragnarok Thor failed the test by giving Loki that ultimatum, so is it any surprise he lost Loki so soon after having already lost his trust? (I can definitely imagine Loki suicidally and recklessly throwing himself into dangerous situations in a desperate attempt to prove his worth in Thor’s eyes after that scene.)

If Thor’s goal was reconciliation, then… he failed spectacularly. He gave Loki the opposite of what he needed, instead confirming what his brother feared all along: That Loki could trust no one to accept him for who he was and anyone who proclaimed to do so would end up betraying him anyway. That he was a fool to hope for more and fight what he suspected to be true all along—that he was inherently worthless. The message was clear: Either change or end up alone with no one at all. So Loki gave up and this is the only reason why the brothers even stayed together, but it’s the farthest thing from reconciliation.

But maybe Thor’s goal stopped being trying to get his brother back and make their relationship work somehow. And that is… sad, but understandable. It is his good right to stop trying and I can’t begrudge him that decision. But Thor is not a real person; he is a fictional character whose actions are dictated by someone else, revealing the writers’ profound lack of understanding of Thor himself. His love for his brother, deciding to continue caring for Loki, even when he is angry and disillusioned and hurt, is what defines him, because Thor believes it is a risk worth taking, always, and he just values his brother that much. If Thor loses that, he loses what makes him special; he loses what makes him Thor.

And Mjolnir was just such an important symbol for that. Ragnarok having Hela own the hammer first is somewhat out of place but excusable since no worthiness spell had been put on it back then IIRC. But the decision to destroy it… felt like they just wanted to scrap that whole huge character arc that was so crucial to Thor. The hammer was there to remind Thor of his own fallibility, for him to gauge himself and his own progress, always. Ragnarok Thor on the other hand is burdened with no such limits and seems like the opposite of self-aware. He is not held accountable for any of his actions and the narrative frames everything he does as something admirable, as progress, even though it clearly isn’t. He’s not facing what he does head on, he is dishonest and back to his most glaring character flaw—thoughtlessness—even though he was over this point a long time ago. Okay, maybe his trust was shattered after too many betrayals, but it’s still a pretty radical break from his character as we know it. Maybe he went into self-protection mode, but we know he loves his brother more than anyone else and when have his self-preservation instincts ever won against the sheer overwhelming force of his love? I agree however that we can’t have two characters who mutually have their trust in each other broken, existing in a false harmony based on inequality, and tack a happy ending on to that. Then we have this whole meaningful character arc replaced by one in which Thor suddenly doubts his powers and needs to believe in himself. Sorry, but Mjolnir was never there to act as a crutch and limit Thor’s powers. Thor was already powerful, a destroyer; the only problem was HOW and WHY he used his power. Mjolnir was there to put a limit to his thoughtlessness.

This is why Ragnarok is unworthy of Thor and what he represented: That people can change for the better, that they can be so good and do everything in their power to make up for their past mistakes, that they can keep on loving their sibling no matter how much they hurt and betray them, because they love them and care for their wellbeing so damn much and want to be with them despite all conventions.

And I think that is a powerful and invaluable message. Instead of letting the world and all the pain he suffered make him cruel, Thor continued to be soft, fair and compassionate. He chose not to play by the toxic rules of Loki’s game, that you have to protect yourself and betray others first before they can hurt you or use your feelings against you, that the only way to be “clever” is to be deceptive. He chose to continue believing in his brother and trust him, willingly opening himself up to hurt and betrayal and disappointment because he decided the risk was worth it; Loki was worth it. This is in no way a weakness or stupidity as many seem to assume, but a strength, and I don’t think that is acknowledged nearly often enough.

But Ragnarok went and took this good thing and destroyed it. Because they didn’t understand it, because they found no value in it. And Thor, my boy, deserved so, so much better than what he got. He deserved to be more than funny (which imo he already was). He deserved more than to be shafted because he was considered boring for caring.

So yeah, this sums up why I think Ragnarok destroyed Thor’s character. It ended up way longer than intended, but I wanted to pack most of the thoughts I had about Ragnarok Thor and the way the movie handled him into one post. Aaaand I probably remixed Illwynd’s points more than I added something new to them, so sorry about that. Also, a caveat: This is just my opinion on the whole issue and my interpretation of Thor. You don’t have to agree with me, but I wanted to show nonny that we Thor fans who are upset with his Ragnarok characterization are definitely there and alive and kicking! 😀 But we are indeed too few, so kudos to you, nonny! You rock! *fist-bump* And you can definitely send me an ask or message me if you’ve got more questions. We are a friendly bunch here!

Last Sentence

Tagged by @illwynd (tysm, you are lovely <3) to do the last sentence game: post the last sentence you wrote and then tag as many people as there are words. (Also, the Thor/Heimdall sounds quite intriguing! And can I say that possessive Loki is just hawt? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°))

Okay, so this is from a WIP that I haven’t scrapped yet:

Maybe a week, a month ago Thor would not have pushed him away. But now that Loki was back, he seemed to have remembered that Baldr wasn’t the brother he wanted. Now, he seemed to realize that he no longer needed a proxy.

Now for something less angsty and more scrumptious from a PWP Baldr/Thor/Loki threesome oneshot I’m working on (which is absolutely not what the meme asks for but whatever lol):

Thor breathed harshly, eyes wild as a stray strand of hair stuck to his swollen red lips. Baldr’s hard chest was pressed flush to his back, radiating heat like the midsummer sun at noon and close enough to feel every twitch in the lethal muscles trapped underneath him.

Yeah, this is waaay more than just one sentence, but I don’t care lol. Hope this motivates me to actually finish something one day. Hmm, I don’t rly know a lot of people, but still… tagging @foreverthorki and @throwbackthorki in case you got something, and only if you want to. Also, I won’t mind if you do this days or weeks later (or never), no pressure 🙂

illwynd:

writernotwaiting:

illwynd:

writernotwaiting:

writernotwaiting:

I’m not quite sure why I feel compelled to make this declaration, though it may be vaguely related to posts I have seen floating around making statements about Loki and/or Thor that just flat out seem to defy logic. So here are a couple of short lists.

1. Things that are true in my head:

·       When we first meet Thor he really would have made an awful king.

·       Thor is not a dumb jock. He is intelligent, but at the start of the first movie he is really arrogant and lacks both empathy and the willingness to think about the long-term consequences of his actions.

·       That Loki was marginalized by Thor’s friends but not flat-out bullied. That for years he was the annoying little brother who they really didn’t want around but who wouldn’t leave. (As a little sister who grew up in a neighborhood where there were no other little girls to hang around with, I know exactly what it looks and feels like to be Big Brother’s Tag-along).

·       When Loki tells Thor that Odin is dead, it’s bc he still thinks Thor would be a horrible king and wants to make sure he stays on earth.

·       When Loki sends the Destroyer after Thor, he has no reason to believe Thor has changed at all. 

·      When Loki sends the Destroyer to eliminate Thor, Loki has also kind of started to go off the rails with self-loathing and is Not Thinking Rationally, and at this time he really did intend to inflict serious, permanent damage. Frigga really should have recognized this and shaken Loki by the collar. I am not sure why Marvel chose to portray Frigga so passively here. She is a an objet d’art in this movie, which is unfair to her character.

·       Loki fully intended to commit suicide when he let go of Odin’s spear, both bc of his perceived rejection by Odin and his internalized racism.

·       Thor really does love his bro and showed amazing self restraint in not pulverizing him when they fight on the Bifrost, esp bc he has no idea why his little brother is acting like a psychopath.

·       Thanos tortured Loki before sending him to earth (come on! look at that after credits scene with Selvig!).

·       When Thor initially shows up in the first Avengers movie, he was totally ready to take Loki back to Asgard and give him All The Hugs.

·       Loki would have taken All The Hugs had he not been scared shitless of Thanos.

·       When Loki dropped Thor from the helicarrier and when he stabbed him, his aim was to incapacitate Thor not kill him. Loki never believed anything he did would cause more than minor injury Thor (c’mon—that tiny little dagger? That’s like an Asgardian mosquito bite; plus, he probably thought Thor would get stuck in that glass cage long enough to stay out of the way–I will never be convinced that Loki believed the fall would be fatal).

·       Loki fully expected to lose the battle in NY and honestly figured being in jail on Asgard was the safest place to be.

·       Odin is a dick.

·       Loki really did get run through by Kurse’s blade trying to save his brother’s life. (and honestly this is the movie where I pinpoint his redemption arc, and I think that giving him a redemption arc in Ragnarok was redundant)

·       Loki really did almost die.

·       Loki disguised himself as Odin in order to hide from Thanos.

·       A couple of years in a nursing home would in no way hasten Odin’s death nor did Loki intend it to, though I’m sure Loki took great delight in the seeing his all-powerful dick of a father reduced to being spoon fed by someone who used baby talk (“Open wide, Mr. Borson! We don’t want your tummy to get upset when we take our medicine!”).

·       Thor is still not a dumb jock, but he is now capable of introspection and occasional outburts of humility. Jury’s still out on empathy, but I’m willing to be convinced.

2.    Things in my head that I hope are true:

·       That before Thanos showed up Loki and Thor at least talked about the fact that Loki took a big ass sword right through his sternum.

·       That they really did hug.

·       That Tony and Loki get shit-faced drunk together at some point and bitch about their shitty dads.

@foundlingmother–I’m not entirely sure I would call MCU Thor compassionate, because I think in order to feel compassion, one has to first be able to imagine what it’s like to be someone else, and as I said, I’m not entirely convinced Thor has developed much capacity for empathy. I’m thinking particularly in Ultron when Banner is traumatized over the destruction caused by the Hulk, and Thor goes all Viking warrior about the screams of the dead. Not so empathetic. (though, as I said, I am willing to be convinced if some one wants to take up that discussion).

I would say, however, that Thor has an incredibly strong senses of duty, honor, and obligation. That’s why he’s polite when he’s really supposed to be (hanging up Mjolnir when he goes to Jane’s apartment like the good boy his mother raised). That’s why he works so hard to save Asgard from Hela–it’s his duty.  That’s why he finally gives in and agrees to be king–obligation.

I would also repeat that he really loves his brother, dammit, and no one can convince me otherwise. So I think you are absolutely correct, @lola-zwietbeste, there is no way Thor knew that Loki had been tortured when he dragged him back home in chains. And even though he was a dick, I don’t think Odin knew, either. Certainly they would both have felt honor bound to revenge Loki’s torture as a slight against family and realm, though it is bit odd that no one thought to do a little bit of forensic investigating. Again, Odin=dick.

I gotta argue with your point about Thor and compassion; compassion and empathy aren’t the same, for one, and I don’t think Thor lacks empathy even at the start of the first movie. You’re certainly right that at that point he hasn’t yet learned to really think things through. And he certainly does a good job of putting his foot in his mouth thoughtlessly more than a few times both early on and later.

But I think the point of the first movie (and this is a theme that carries through in Avengers 1, TDW, and to a lesser extent AoU) is that Thor is driven far more by compassion than, in fact, by duty or obligation: when he proves himself worthy, it’s by following his own inner sense of right and wrong rather than following a rule or obligation, and that inner sense requires that he save the people around him while continuing to reach out to his brother who is at that moment trying to kill him, rather than take any action to save himself. Even when he is able to fight back later, he won’t use more than the bare minimum of force to hold Loki off. I don’t think he does that because it’s expected of him as a sibling or because it’s the honorable thing to do. I think he does it because he cares, deeply, about people and about Loki in particular and he refuses to give up on them. That looks like compassion to me. 

And he was certainly capable of empathizing with people even at the beginning of the first movie, since he proved able to do so later. He was just not actually doing so, but when he got the big ol’ smack in the face of being told off by dad and banished, he started making the effort. Thor’s flaw at that point is arrogance and also… not living up to what he is capable of being, if you get me? He’s coasting, because things are going so great for him he doesn’t bother to do more. That’s why a shake-up was all it really took. 

(All that said, I love and agree with 90% of your list up there and I’m glad you posted it, because man there are some weird interpretations going around these days and I was starting to feel like I must be nuts.)

You make a pretty good argument.

I think I might still say that Thor is still a “work in process. “ When I say that, I mean that there still seem to be instances across the films where he could be said to be … erm … selectively compassionate? Though the more obvious of these seem to be driven by someone’s compulsion to include a cheap laugh, and might be dismissed as problems with the film-makers rather than with Thor as a character. At the same time, he would be a pretty boring character if he had nothing left to learn or discover about himself.

Thank you for the thoughtful additions!

Oh, yes, definitely! There are moments when he doesn’t do very well, and there are certainly things he has to grapple with and doesn’t reach the right answer immediately, but I think the intention is always there, and I think he’s very conscious, after that shake-up, of the possibility of failure, of not being the person he wants to be. That aspect of him being a work in progress and continually *trying* rather than becoming complacent is one of the things I find really valuable about him as a character. So yeah, totally agreed!

Okay, please ignore this. I would have put this into the tags but I ran out of space. Forgive me if my meta is strange and incoherent. There may not be much weight to my thoughts as I don’t go with the times and am still stubbornly stuck in the past when it comes to the mcu canon. Also, a piece of warning: This is pretty long.

I firmly believe that some of Thor’s characterization has been erratic re: the ‘he’s adopted’ line in Avengers which I think is highly ooc and shows that the writers lack a deep understanding and don’t care about Thor’s character. It’s so easy for them to fall into the trap of thinking Thor is simplistic or just a dumb jock. The reason why I think this behavior (also his behavior in AoU) is clearly ooc is because Thor 1 was about humbling Thor. After his banishment he learns to respect the mortals so much, especially Jane and her work, quickly recognizing her passion and helping her better understand how the universe works. Also, after smashing the cup he goes back to replace it with a new one and apologize to the shop owner. This implies that he is willing to listen to Jane who probably gave him a more in-depth explanation about the wrong of his doings behind the scenes (or maybe Thor came to his conclusions on his own by thinking hard enough about what he did wrong!). Okay, so this is a deleted scene but still! I stand by my point that Thor learns incredibly fast. In just a manner of days he learned to feel and empathize deeply with the mortals and to think of their lives as precious – precious enough to sacrifice his own (him! a god! even though he is just as weak and mortal as them now). Because he feels like it’s his fault. He brought the fight and Loki’s wrath to them and the mortals don’t deserve to suffer for his sins (which is a flawed idea, it is not and can not be his fault – Thor is not responsible for Loki’s actions). This seems pretty compassionate to me.

Which is also why the ‘you humans are so petty and tiny’ line strikes me as very ooc. Thor is so past this point by now! A whole movie was spent on showing just how deeply he learns to empathize with the mortals. He’s got huge respect for mortals. He would never make such a broadly generalizing and insulting remark on humanity as a whole but instead recognize that individuals of any race can be petty. This is also why I don’t understand Thor’s line to Bruce in AoU about the screams of the dead. I regard this as a failing on the writers’ part because come on! Give Thor a little more credit, he definitely has more sense than that (honestly, I doubt even pre-banishment Thor would have said that)! 

But this may just be a fundamental difference in our opinions. You are free to stick to your position that this is a symptom of Thor’s compassion still being a work in progress and I don’t want to force my opinion on you in any way. However, I would argue that compassion and empathy are always works in progress by virtue of their nature, and Thor has definitely come far enough in terms of possessing an admirable amount of empathy. This is so much more than many people can claim for themselves and I think it would be unfair to say that Thor still falls short after all he’s done (re: his self-sacrifice, explaining the stars to Jane because he understands this is important to her, comforting Loki). Please give credit where credit is due! Also, I disagree with your equation of Thor being compassionate to being pretty boring if he had nothing more to learn since as I’ve said, empathy is by its nature a work in progress; to be empathic and kind you need to put in hard work which imo is not boring, in any case I don’t think there is a perfectly empathic and compassionate being???

Of course, Thor still makes mistakes and it took him being banished to Earth and literally being forced to become mortal in order to understand what it’s like being someone else, in this case a ‘mortal’. But he adapts and learns incredibly fast, which I don’t think he would have been capable of if he didn’t already possess an incredible potential and capacity for empathy. In this I totally agree with Illwynd! He just hadn’t had many opportunities to flex his empathy muscles, even so Sif had already been in his retinue of friends and shieldmates and later on Earth he respected Jane and took her seriously despite being from a male-dominated warrior culture. To me this is indicative of at least a little empathy from the beginning.

May I also mention the scene in which Loki visits Thor on Earth, lying to Thor that Odin is dead while strongly implying it was Thor’s fault? Instead of raging or acting like a brat, Thor’s first instinct is to comfort Loki.

He thinks of Loki first. He thinks of his little brother’s loss before his own even though Thor lost his father too.

He thinks of the burden of kingship falling on Loki’s shoulders with the threat of war hovering over the horizon and the mess he left that Loki now is forced to fix. He doesn’t demand to be taken back and understands, even accepts that Frigga might be upset enough with him, that her loss was so deep, that she blames Thor for Odin’s death so much as to forever forbid his return. This is heavy empathy shit right here. This is also the solid foundation of his compassion next: Thor even thanks Loki. He would have understood if Loki had been like Frigga and never wanted to see his face again, if Loki had not even visited him one last time to inform him of the reasons why he can never return, tell him about Odin’s death or say goodbye. He knows Loki is in a tough position and does not blame him, not even one bit. He goes even one step further and shows that he forgives Loki by thanking him, so he may at least take a little of that burden from Loki’s shoulders.

I just asdfghjkl

Sorry for totally hijacking your post. Also, this was probably redundant since you already mentioned there being more obviously ooc Thor moments played for cheap laughs in the MCU. But case in point, I don’t consider the other subtler moments or the AoU one very in-character as I believe Thor has progressed in empathy a lot more than that. In other words, I don’t disagree that compassion is a work in progress or that Thor is not finished improving his empathy but I rather think that empathy is always a work of progress and that although there is room for improvement Thor already has come far and is very much capable of drawing on a deep well of empathy.

🔥 At the risk of seeming obvious… Could you please share an unpopular opinion on Baldr (myth, comic, or in a shipping way etc. is up to you)? :) (Alternatively, if you can’t think of anything you can also freely choose a topic of your own, no biggie <3)

illwynd:

seamayweed:

illwynd:

Ahhh the problem here is I’m not entirely sure what the popular Baldr opinions are (except perhaps the lack thereof)? Or, idk, like I’ve met heathens who revere him and people who find him boring, but Baldr troubles me and I wish we had more versions of the mistletoe story, particularly pre-Christianization versions. I definitely see it as being about communal violence rather than the seasons or whatnot, but it’s a slippery myth and I feel like I understand Loki’s part in it but Baldr troubles me and I’m never quite sure about him. 

Ah, I already thought this might not be an easy question to answer as there is not just one interpretation of the myth? The most common ones I suppose are the two-man con by Odin and Loki, or more polarizing ones which cast Baldr as the epitome of goodness and purity and Loki as the Evil™, or more extreme ones that claim that Baldr was a Christian invention/a stand-in for Jesus Christ and therefore never existed in the first place – or alternatively attempts to cut Loki out of the story entirely by saying that he was only a later addition to the story and it was originally only Hodr who had a hand in killing Baldr.  

Ngl, the ambiguity of the myth and Baldr figure is what makes him so appealing to me. There are just so many discrepancies and bogus reasons for why anyone does anything they do in the story that you end up doing a lot of head-scratching and with like a gazillion different interpretations which might or might not be true lol. I suppose I just like that Baldr isn’t so easy to pin down despite seeming like this really simple character on the surface who is good and beautiful and just… frustratingly passive (at least in the Snorri version). 

Ahhh yes, your essay about communal violence (which is asdfghjkl amazing btw)!  I remember reading it years ago and being mind-blown. Yeah, the seasons interpretation makes for pretty nature imagery but imo that is a really simplistic way of looking at things and doesn’t really cut into the heart of the story? I personally think that Odin plays a larger role (so veering off more into the two-man con territory) since the game of throwing things at Baldr is really similar to King Víkarr’s mock-sacrifice to Odin from the Gautreks saga which is also elaborated on in Some Controversial Aspects of the Myth of Baldr by Anatoly Liberman. Here the proposal is also made (which you also mention in your essay) that originally it was the reed and not the mistletoe that was thrown at Baldr since it was his sacred plant and should have been loyal to him. Just… really interesting stuff! And it shows just how little we really know about the Baldr myth, haha.

Okaaay, I should stop gushing now. It’s probably no secret that I’m just thirsty af for more Baldr content and I was wondering if you had more theories about Baldr like the collective violence one haaaa so really, thank you for replying to my ask! 😀 Guess we’ll just continue to be mystified by Baldr, eh?

Yes! All of those things! The ambiguity is exactly why I find Baldr and that myth so troubling and so fascinating. Thank you for knowing what I was getting at better than I did XD

And it’s just now got me thinking how in that sense Marvel does a pretty good job sometimes of bringing out just that ambiguity with him in the comics, despite the tendency to forget about him completely at other times. Blood Brothers, for instance—nobody is their best and noblest self in that book, but how Baldr comes across depending whose POV you take, wow. 

Also ohhh I am not sure I had thought as much on Odin’s role in it but that is a good point about that similarity… the Víkarr story is kinda freaky to begin with but that makes it even worse. Oh Odin, how did you ever get to lead a pantheon O_O

Hehe, I’m only glad to serve xD And yeah, gotta love that ambiguity. It’s just so easy to dismiss Baldr as this nice but kinda boring character but there’s just so much we don’t know about him?? Then there are all these discrepancies in the myth which really give you the sense that nothing is quite as it seems. Not to mention the Saxo version!

Ehhhhhh and here I thought Marvel could only either (1) turn Bald(e)r into the butt-end of a joke or (2) conveniently forget about him 😛 But the way you describe him in Blood Brothers sounds really interesting! Seems like I gotta check it out asap 😀 😀 😀

And yep, Odin is a real creeper. We aleady know he loves sacrifices but then there is also the fact that Baldr is his son, which is just… disturbing, all things considered (guess American Gods got that right!). Hah, I guess you gotta be the creepiest and most magnificent bastard to get to that position? xD